I tried the Rotation Diet about 4 years ago and it was fantastic! I'm starting it again tomorrow. Why? Well, because I totally went out of control and have put 40 lbs. on the past 4 years - mostly from fast food and a hectic schedule. The key, I think, is to read the entire book before you start the diet. It's not as restrictive as you may think. You have "safe vegetables" that you can eat anytime and as much as you want and a "safe fruit" you can go to when you need a calorie lift. Also, if you follow the menu plan, you don't have to count calories since they're counted for you. Honestly, when I did it the first time I felt terrible the first week but that was because I think my body was going through de-tox. On the Rotation Diet you eat really healthy foods that are high in nutritional content. After the first week, I began to feel really good and was amazed that I didn't need a value meal to feel satisfied.

Oh, and you are supposed to exercise on this diet. A 45-minute walk every day is recommended. When I did it before, I added some resistance training three days a week to make sure I wasn't literally wasting away. The best thing for me is that I still can have carbs - but not a bag of Doritos. The hardest thing, I'll have to cook - but most meals take less time than it would take to go to the drive through.

I'm excited to start it again so I can get out of these 38" waist pants! I'm also happy to find traineo since I think the support will be really good!

if you do this diet, i will not support you for one moment. just eat. exercise at a high intensity, yes, but eat.

Whatever, Bean.

Kirk, to be able to support you on such a low calorie diet... I mean you would need a doctor (or 2) to tell you that you should only eat that much. Such a low calorie diet plan is like anorexia. Your body needs fuel. Starving yourself is not the answer. Bean wasn't exactly polite in the way he said it, but he's right. You need to eat.

That is the fundamental problem with this type of diet. It's not something that you can sustain long term. You will always gain the weight back.

That's why people are suggesting that you don't bother with these fad diets. Just eat good healthy foods and exercise. The weight will come off and it's much more sustainable.

All I'll say is this: Until you've read the entire book and understand the philosophy you may be speaking out of ignorance. Your comments seem to be knee jerk reactions to what you think you know. I suppose none of you know that you really spend most of the diet on 1,500-2,000 calories per day (depending on the amounts of safe fruits/vegetables you WANT to eat) - it's only the first few days that you shock your metabolism be drastically reducing your calorie intake. It's almost like a partial fast which can be quite healthy.

I did a lot of research before I did the diet the first time. Doctors do, in fact recommend it. So, I appreciate the kind words and concern but I'd also encourage you to do your due dilligence before you pass judgement.

I thought of a couple more things about this diet that may be helpful. The Rotation Diet was developed by Martin Katahn, PhD - Director of the Weight Management Program at Vanderbilt Universtiy. He's hardly a slouch (although I believe he's retired now). For what it's worth, the majority of the book is devoted to the maintaining your weight after you've lost what you need to loose.

In my first post, I admitted I gained weight back. But, honestly, it's not because the diet is so hard to follow and too strict. On the contrary, it's amazingly simple - but not as simple as a trip through the drive-thru. I believe we all have to "own our stuff" and the simple truth is that I got lazy and stayed that way. The bulging disk in my lower back didn't help matters either because my exercise level was all but non-existent. Just thought I'd ad that two cents worth.

Our comments are mostly based on a real and fundamental understanding of how the human body works, which is to say that your body (EVERYONE's body) wants to mantain a state of homeostasis; shocking your body for something like exercise is GOOD because it disrupts that state and causes your body to adapt (build muscle), but something as fundamental as fuel, especially in the manner that this diet does it is potentially very negative since your calorie intake is so dramatically reduced that your body thinks it's starving, not that it needs to burn more fat.

When your body is in a significant calorie deficit, it will sacrifice it's own protein (read: muscle) for two reasons: it uses it as an energy source AND it wants to lower it's future energy dependencies. It will not go at your fat stores in that case, it's mostly going to keep them there until it achieves a state of homeostasis based on what it expects to take in for calories. In other words, it will keep fat and burn away muscle there until it trusts you to fuel it properly. Any diet that causes you to sacrifice muscle just to get the scale to drop a few numbers is always going to be classified as bad and, most likely unhealthy.

In my own journey back into healthy living I've done plenty of reading and most of it (and everything I actually agree with/subscribe to) not only contradicts your research, but plenty of it has been strongly opposed to these types of fad diets, and yes, I did read articles and recommendations suggesting things like this rotation diet and other "fad diets". My research has also been authored by PhDs and folks you would expect to be "in the know", not that it matters to me. If you believe everything someone says because they have a piece of paper that says you should, or because they wear a white coat and refer to themselves as "doctor", I can refer you to some "male enhancement" pills and magic "fat burning" powders.

Finding research that agrees with your perspective is easy; being open minded enough to make your own determination is hard. Just because someone has a PhD in something doesn't make their research infallible; if it did then mankind would be a lot further along than it is. I applaud questioning what's generally accepted and finding your own truth, that's exactly what I did, but unfortunately, I think you're going to have a hard time convincing anyone that this diet: a) works in a healthy way; or b) is worth doing. As far as doing our "due dilligence", I think you should probably take some of your own advice because in 3 seconds of a Google search, I found plenty of articles, in fact every article except two on the first page warned against this type of diet or fasting in general.

There's a reason that these kinds of diets are classified as "trend" or "fad" diets; they come and go whenever someone can think of a new variation. There's also a reason that the whole "eat smart and exercise" idea has been around forever and is never goign to go away, and I'm sorry... very few people here (or anywhere) are going to call this diet "eating smart." If burning fat and being healthy was as easy as a 3 week diet cycle, then there would be no obesity problem.

We're at an impass here. Clifford I don't believe you've read the book - or you've missed one of the major points. So, I'm not arguing this with anyone anymore. It's 250 pages of information and only a small fraction of it is "the diet" itself.

I should say that this diet isn't for everybody. When I was in my 20s I'd never have considered it - didn't need it! I had tons of energy and went to the gymn 3-5 times a week and had a 30" waist. That was two decades ago and I've since developed arthritis in my knees and have bluging disk in my lower back. Intense exercise is a physical impossibility for me. So, if I can cut back on calories for three days and gradually add more (precisely so my body will know it's not being starved) and can see the scale drop a few pounds (you typically don't loose a pound a day unless you are really obese) that encourages me to keep going.

When I get some of the weight off and my health improves I will increase my physical activity - and also my calories!! I will not, however, return to bad foods and habits because I'll have had a good stretch of fresh fruits, vegetables, whole grains, lean dairy, nuts and lean meats (now that does sound like unhealthy eating doesn't it?) that are prepared in ways the TASTE GREAT (I never knew diet food could taste as good as some of the recipes in the Rotation Diet)!

You all take care and best of luck to you on your journey to better health.

Kirk - I want you to know that I support you as this diet has worked for me in the past and is now again working for me. If people don't like what we are doing find another thread and stop being so negative. That is not what this is for...

And I also wanted to say that I am and always have been exercising, but my body doesn't lose weight with exercise - it never has - and from what I've read, and know from my job, it isn't really supposed to. I'm actually very active, I play sports and exercise cardio and weights. This diet is just to help me kick start my healthy eating again. It's really hard to be motivated without a good little jump in weight loss at the beginning of a healthier path.

It's not anorexia and I'm not hungry. You nay sayers need to get a life and find someone to pump up instead of put down. Jeez! Good Luck, Kirk!

another example of this type of situation would be:

my friend says she's very stressed out. i want to help her, and then she calls me again saying "i don't need to worry about stress anymore! i've discovered eating a Big Mac relieves stress for me!" okay yes that's true, but it isn't the optimal way to live and to live stress-free. i would not support her continuing to eat a big mac when she was stressed, and i would hope she finds a better way.

i said if he does this diet, i will not support him. if he eats as nature intended, all the power to him.


this statement has a lot of problems, don't you see? calorie-starving diets are trends that come in and out. they help, then you gain weight, then they help again. meanwhile, studies show that you're destroying your immune system and metabolism.

you and kirk both have proved this diet is a bad idea while defending it. meanwhile, in 2005 i started a slow road to weight loss with very simple nutrient-dense calorie substitutions and have kept off 75 pounds, signing up for my first triathlon in july and consume significantly more than 2,000 calories a day spread over 6-7 meals.

this isn't polite to say, no, but if you ever get free from your current unhealthy mentality of fear and inappropriately addressing a healthy weight lifestyle, you will hate to see it in others as well.

stand up bean, I guess I've never been 75 lbs overweight --- and never had to lose it to feel good about myself while putting others down. I was never even 75lbs overweight when I was pregnant, any of the times.

Good for you for running a marathon --- If you're ever up in the Rockies I run a lot of races there. You really need to read before you open your mouth --- like Kirk says it is full of nutritional information --- not fad hype. It's only a fad if you skim the subtext.

And I would respond to your last comment
except that I'm not sure where you learned English.

And I doubt you have many friends who would call you period-- and maybe that's why you had all those years to lose weight - and if they did call you to say it'd be because you'd be their biggest stress. Maybe you need our support, Maybe you are crying out in your own way. So Please have a wonderful and positive day!!!

oh. you're right.

If this diet works for you, great. If it helps you lose weight and stay healthy, awesome. I just don't personally believe that it would work in a healthy way for me or the majority of people in a situation where they need to lose weight.



You aren't supposed to lose weight with exercise? That's news to me considering that's the exact opposite of what my own experience and just about everyone elses here has been, but hey, everyone is different, so if this is the magic bullet that works for you, stay with it.

As far as not feeling hungry or that feeling of euphoria in the low calorie phase? It's a defensive response from your body in a state of emergency that dates back to our caveman days, people who report feeling this while fasting feel it because their body is trying to protect itself. When your body isn't properly fed it's first response is hunger, if that hunger is ignored your body goes into emergency protection mode and tells you you aren't hungry so that you don't go out and get trampled by a woolly mammoth in a quest for a piece of fruit; it's why anorexics don't crave food after a certain point.



This thread was a discussion ABOUT the diet, so our criticisms, questions, and discussion are perfectly appropriate here. If the thread were titled "The Rotation Diet is Awesome; Post Your Success Stories Here!" then maybe your argument about "finding another thread" would have some ground.

The deliciously entertaining irony of this is that you have been, by far, the most negative person so far in this thread with your ad hominem attacks. No one has necessarily been negative, just because we don't agree with the diet, and state our opinions and knowledge that contradicts it doesn't make us negative, it puts us in the middle of a discussion. Hell, I even commented on a recipe Kirk suggested in another thread FROM the book, saying that I wanted to try it. Clearly I'm not negatively dismissing everything HE says as rubbish or negative.

Accusing people of not having friends and saying that they're the source of peoples stress, that's negative. Just because we don't agree with you (hell, it's not even YOU we were disagreeing or debating with... you joined this conversation late, apparantly just to sling insults) doesn't mean we're negative or judging you, but you seem to be making that presumption which leads me to question just how much your friends like you, no one really wants to hang out with someone that takes everything personally or argues all the time. The person pointing fingers at everyone else has four other fingers pointing back at themself.

I don't know you, and you certainly don't know me or Bean, but judging by your prose, I would highly doubt that human and irony were your original intent, although, for your sake, I certainly hope you use them as a cover.

I appreciate all of your comments, really I do. Even though some (most?) of you don't agree with me, it still feels like being cared for because I know you mean well. So, going forward I'd like us to be kind to each other and I'll try to do the same.

I also need to 'fess up to some degree. The truth is, I'm not a hard-line-follow-the-diet-to-a-T person. Talk about stressful!! Even though it's not intentional, I'd say I use the Rotation Diet as a foundational outline. But, I do have a life, friends, dinner with clients (and my friends), etc. Good grief, I'd be a madman if I didn't allow myself some flexibility. The good thing about the RT for me is that if I have lunch with a client as I did today I'm consiously thinking about wise food choices. So I naturally eat better. Tonight I'll be back on my RT dinner.

Twenty minutes ago a friend stopped by my office with a latte - and not one of those tasteless "skinny" ones either. Did I pour it down the sink? Hell no! It was a nice gesture and I drank it gratefully. So, in reality, I'm probably over the recommended calories by 200-300 everyday. And I still loose weight. I love that! I'm also walking everyday which is helping my mental health too.

Hey Clifford, are you a writer? "The deliciously entertaining irony. . ." Nicely phrased. And do try the recipe when you can.

Jen, I'm in the rockies too - but you'll not see me running any marathons.

Will someone please tell me how to use the "quote" feature on this? I can't figure it out.

Highlight the text in the post and click the "Quote" link for that post and it'll add the tags to the reply box... Traineo doesn't have the most intuitive UI for the forums, but it's workable and once you get past the initial "huh?" phase it works nicely enough.

I don't think that anyone can stay to a diet with strict rules and boundaries, we all need wiggle room because every day is a little different and we'd get bored eating the same routine meals and stuff. It's also been shown that a slight calorie boost here and there can boost your metabolism, initial research seems to indicate that your body performs better in excess than otherwise, which is one of the reasons I'm inclined to be wary of cutting calories too harshly.

I know I sound like a broken record about it on these forums, but you should check out "The Abs Diet" by David Zinczenko if for no other reason than it's a pretty entertaining read (good writing style) and the recipes in it are easy to cook and actually taste good.

I think if I hear you refer to it one more time, I may actually read it. Hehe. Just messin Cliff. Hopefully, I'll get around to it in the near future. I have to finish my sci fi book first though!!!

That's ridiculously simple. Thanks. I have "The Abs Diet" cookbook - but not he bookbook. Haven't tried any of the recipes though. I used to do catering and have lots of cookbooks - sometimes I read them like novels. Sick.

Mention what? The Abs Diet by David Zinczenko? Do I really talk about The Abs Diet by David Zinczenko that often?

I guess that book to me is 9/11 to Guiliani

Hey, I just want to apologize for the other day. Obviously some buttons were pushed and I pushed back a little more than I should have. I just felt that people could have been a little more supportive. But I had no right to be so cruel. I am sorry.

And I understand that it is an unconventional diet that looks like (and, may for some, be) a bad choice. But I am under the guidance of a dietician from a great hospital as I have been trying to lose weight with no success using conventional means. (Even though I put on the extra weight in less than a few months - it is not coming off like it went on). I work out 5-6 times per week on machines and running, plus weights, and I bike and play intermural sports and the scale doesn't budge. We even tried to up the intensity, but it didn't work. And I guess that shouldn't matter but it does.

I'm not starving myself as I use plenty of the "free" foods that are allowed, and I am being monitored. I just really needed the boost and because it is so short a time that the calories are cut low I feel I can do this. And yes, because it worked for me before, we thought we'd try there.

I do think it's great that people are losing weight, and running a marathon. I actually meant that sincerely, though looking back at my post I know it didn't come out that way. I just was trying to say that everyone has their own way with dealing with their weight issues and if I could eat a Subway sandwich every day and do it, I would, but I can't even look at bread without my scale budging upward.

I guess I'm just frustrated that I have to workout so much and I'm not overeating and still I do not see results and so I was happy with this step forward, even if everyone else was seeing it as a step backwards, but then I felt like I was being told that it was stupid...and I hope it's not because then I really don't know what else to do. If you, any of you, have a constructive idea please let me know, but like I said I am being followed by a dietician and nothing was working.

And Kirk, I'm not a hundred percent sticking to it either --- last week on one of the 1200 days it was my birthday and I ate out at my favorite restaurant but the great thing is it's easy to get back on RD and continue - not that I pigged out by any means and like you I picked healthy, healthy food. And I'm finally seeing the scale budge in the direction I want. It's week three and I'm almost where I want the scale to be. I'm not looking for miracles, I'll never be model weight, but it is nice to see the numbers drop some.

Good luck to you all (sincerely).

Jen no hard feelings here. I'm sorry that you are having so much trouble losing weight. Before you started the RD, what kind of diet did your dietitian have you on?

jen, i'm sorry you've had so much trouble, and i'm glad you have a professional evaluating your process. out of curiosity (please don't interpret this the wrong way), is a dietician a doctor?

and just so rumors don't get started, i'm running a triathlon, not a marathon. my goal to do the iron man (which includes a marathon) is 2010.

Newbie here, and what follows is FWIW.

I found this thread by accident and read it with interest. I don't think that wading through every off-hand comment made by others is necessary in this introductory venue, but I shall point out that the Rotation Diet is very little different from Pritikin's or Ornish's old warhorse plans, and is considerably sounder than some of the newer offerings.

To a large degree, the RD reminds me most of the South Beach Diet, it's just that the SBD played it soft on calories and hard on food types. Whatever. The end result was much, much, much the same. And, while both plans are naive in both content and writing style, the RD is less dogmatic and more educational than SBD.

In case you need a refresher on the older plans, you will remember that Ornish's diet (more of a lifestyle change, really), while still controversial in cardiology circles, was nonetheless successful in limited clinical trials and is still in trials -- I think: I haven't looked in a while -- without any significant negative findings.

I mention Ornish in particular because I think his approach strongly complements Katahn's RD. In other words, the two together make for a sensible program and one that can lead to permanent healthful changes. So, for example, if one follows the RD cycles but is careful to watch fat and fiber levels as well as incorporating some core yoga positions to engage hormonal and immunological systems as well as balance Katahn's somewhat simplistic walking scheme, there is nothing fundamentally unsound about the RD approach.

Generally speaking, for everyone differs metabolically / biologically / etc., I feel comfortable saying that...

The RD does not necessarily result in skinny-but-flabby: failure to exercise results in that.

The RD also does not necessarily result in metabolic slowdown: failure to exercise results in that.

But the RD can, if ignorantly prosecuted, result in nutritional imbalances. So, it is necessary here, as everywhere, to proceed with some knowledge and a healthy dollop of common sense. Also, we know more about nutrition than Katahn did.

It is fair to say that the RD can result in dramatic initial weight losses, this being positively correlated to how overweight you are to begin with. While a meaningful proportion of this initial loss is "just water", it's actually not overly healthy to carry excessive fluids, so the "just water" often needed to go, too, and good riddance.

As we know, there is nothing whatsoever frivolous about the positive emotional and health benefits of dramatic initial weight loss, so long as there isn't a hidden cost. Sensibly undertaken, I do not believe the RD has hidden costs...UNTIL you have lost the weight you wish to lose and then need a plan for the rest of your life. Here, I think Katahn wrote the book before he had the necessary decades of trials and thus his advice for "maintenance" is not very solid.

However, one does not enter into a permanent relationship of fidelity with a nutritional plan, does one? Take from each what each offers to you: no more, no less. And so, where Katahn falters on maintenance, look for guidance elsewhere.


Anyway, I'm not a salesman and I am new in this community, so I oughta shut up. I will mention that I am an RN, however, and am doing my level best here to say what I've said both kindly and responsibly. I have done quite a bit of research on nutrition and the field of bariatrics, so if an extended discussion of this is wanted, let me know and I can dig out the research and type away. I am working on an employee wellness program at work, and so this general topic is much on my thoughts.

Enough! Thanks!

Milissa

The problem with this thread is that no mention of macro nutrient balances, types of foods, etc. for the RD diet have been addressed, only the calorie content of those foods, and "free foods" (whatever that is).

Neither has the duration for the "low" days been addressed, so people assume you are permanently in low-calorie mode.

If you people defending your diets would ever care to inject those crucial bits of information, perhaps you wouldn't be ridiculed as badly.

There, my $0.02

I actually disagree with that; exercise will speed up the process and is crucial to BUILDING muscle, but you don't have to gain muscle to lose weight (in fact, if your focus is on the scale, which I firmly believe it shouldn't be, then gaining muscle mass would go against your goals.) But skinny but flabby is a result of significant weight loss when a significant portion of the loss is muscle, the "loose skin" is actually pockets of fat without muscle to fill it out, no matter how big you are or how much weight you have to lose, having loose skin (skinny but flabby) is not a required pit stop on the road to better health. If you drop your body fat % (which usually means either gaining muscle or at least maintaining) you won't become "skinny-but-flabby". Where diets like this cause concern in me is that the significantly reduced calorie intake signals your body to go into starvation mode and your body will sacrifice muscle as a result. Exercise, in that situation, won't help your body maintain muscle, it will actually exacerbate the situation by increasing your calorie deficiency, causing your body to burn MORE muscle for energy, which will lead to even more muscle loss and a very likely possibility of an increase in your body fat percentage. In fact, there are no exercises that will prevent your body from burning muscle if that's what your body thinks it has to do. Exercise encourages muscles to grow, IF (big if) it has the nutrients and calories (fuel) necessary to do so.

Muscle burns calories, I've read in many places that 1lb of muscle will burn up to 50 calories per day. If your body is sacrificing muscle, again this cannot be prevented through exercise, then you are lowering your natural calorie burn and your body will burn muscle if it doesn't have the proper resources to sustain itself which is something you run the risk of when you cut your calories sharply and for long durations of time.

Again, diets like this are "successful" because they focus on one simple number (weight) while ignoring the context of the body as a whole. The body is a complex system with a lot of interdependencies and health cannot be measured in a single, simple, empirical manner. It is important to understand the composition of your body (body fat %) and how it correlates to your weight, as well as your emotional and mental state. Focusing too hard on the scale can actually be detrimental to your goals, especially to those of us who would like to look better naked... not that there isn't a whole lot of pretty happening in my mirror already!



No need to be humble, just because you're new! Being new and not having been sucked into the daily diatribe and resulting groupthink that happens in any community means you bring a new perspective, and your post was obviously well thought out. Just because you may or may not agree with folks who have ridiculously high postcounts doesn't mean you aren't allowed to voice your opinion, although it is more fun if you sling insults and ad hominem attacks. Jerk!

Clifford,
Just giving you fair notice that I'm taking this line and I'm going to use it often.

I just bought The Rotation Diet book last night. My uncle used this diet successfully 20 years ago. I really hope it works as well for me.

What kills me about all these "just-eat-a-moderate-diet-and-exercise" people is that they're speaking as if none of us has ever tried this before.

I've got news for all you nay-sayers out there: I've lost 50 lbs. at least three times in my life and all three times I did it the "healthy" way---i.e., eating a balanced diet & exercising and losing 1 lb. a week. I've even dieted the simple way by eating just three moderate meals a day (no calorie counting) w/ just fruit inbetween (I got to my lowest weight doing that). Guess what? I still regained the weight.

I don't care what plan you follow--Rotation, WW, JUDDD, or whatever . . . If you starting pigging out, you will regain the weight. That's why I regained the weight. I get stressed and high-calorie comfort food is the easiest, most convenient, and cheapest method of feeling good fast.

I've read the Rotation Diet, and I fully intend to try it as soon as I can map out three weeks where I can do it uninterrupted. Until then, I'll try to "eat moderately" and I'll bet while doing that, I'll lose about 1/4 lb. a week. I don't buy all that malarky about quick loss / quick gain. There's something to be said for losing quickly as a method for motivating yourself to stay on plan.

Kurt & Jen---Best of luck to you. Don't let the naysayers get you down.

Another newbie chiming in here.
What really kills me about these diets is the fact they promote quick weight loss in a certain amount of time, and then you're off the diet and you can go about your merry way.
55 pounds ago, I agreed that the simple "eat right and exercise" line was a myth made up by skinny people, but I've followed it for 2 years and now I'm skinny, fit and healthy.
A thought occured yesterday when somebody said to me "Wow Luke you're always on a diet..." - it's not really a diet at all it's more of a lifestyle change. You can't quickly lose 20 lbs and then go back and enjoy daily cheeseburgers, because then 6 months later you're back on your diet.

Cliff and stand up bean I got your back.....all I have to say its the Abs diet is one the best books on the market. Actual food.....when I was in high school I was in the best shape of my life with the workouts and nutrition side. Unfortunately really really late nights....and college forced me to pack on the pounds. Good thing I am heading back to basics.