Hands down these are probably the two most important exercises you can do, whether you're building mass, strengthening up or toning (your whole body), but I'm just curious how people here work them into their routines.

I typically do squats OR deadlifts as my compound exercise on a legs day then I do isolations (leg curls, leg extensions, etc.). Occasionally I'll do an all compound exercise day and go squats, to deadlifts to leg press or something, but I'm kind of curious how other people structure their leg days and how often you guys (and gals) hit your legs.

I'm starting to work the deadlifts in more often now, personally, but I've had lower back issues in the past so I worry about my form, especially as the weight goes higher... but that's no excuse to not practice at lighter weights.

Also, while we're on the subject, I squatted 3 plates last week (315lbs total) for 3 sets of ~8. Pretty happy with that I'm sure Bour or Jericho would shame me with their numbers there... if they're still alive...

I haven't lifted heavy for a while now, though when I did I often put deadlifts into my back workout. To learn how to get the most from deadlifts I would recomend reading 'Power to the People' by Pavel Tsatsouline.

In fact, in those days that I was lifting heavy I pretty much only did power lifting and nothing else, so a couple of exercises like Squats and Deadlifts would have been an entire workout for me and then home. In fact a typical week would have been:

Workout 1 - Bench Press, Bar-bell Military Press
Workout 2 - Deadlift, Bent over Bar-bell Row
Workout 3 - Squats, Bar-bell Calf Raises

And that was it. I had great results when everyone else spent hours in the gym and got no where.

Remember it is all about Intensity!!

Recently I have been enjoying my Kettlebell and getting out on the mountains for some phys. Will have to revisit the iron again sometime soon to see how much strength I might have lost.

I just started doing the madcow version of the 5x5 routine (http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/5x5_Program /Periodized_5x5.htm), and I must say it has me hitting the legs often and hitting them hard.

The program consists of doing strictly compound exercises, namely bench press, 90 degree barbell rows, weighted pull-ups, deadlifts, and squats. I lift three days a week, and each day the mix of exercises is a little bit different.

But what I love about the program is that it has me squatting 3 days a week, and deadlifting after squats on one of the squat days. If you look at the link, the program is heavy, intense, and pretty damn hard. In a nutshell, I perform all exercises at ~90-95% of my 5 rep RM for the first three weeks of the program. Starting on the 4th week, I use my current 5 rep RM weight in all exercises, and each week thereafter increase the weight 5-10% (if of course I'm able to maintain progress at that level).

I agree with Clifford. All you need to reach dominant leg strength are deadlifts and squats. Nothing else really matters.

I have lifted 5 times a week on some of my workouts in the past with great results though the emphasis has to be on not training to failure.

I tried out the 'Hoolywood' style of training coined by Pavel which involved doing as many as 20 sets plus of 5 reps. Man you can grow big fast if you can find a way to eat in line with your activity!!

Hah, I didn't even see this! Three sets of 8 and 315 is great as long as your ass is going into the bucket every rep!

I'm doing 5x5 with 375 on the squat bar this week, and 5x5 with 400-405 on the deadlifts as well. Once this is all said and done, I want to attempt 20 reps with 315 on the squat bar for one set. Just thinking about it gives me the shivers.



Wow, I can't imagine what my diet would become if I even entertained the thought of engaging in this program.

I meant to say Hollywood style not Hoolywood.



Oh yes, you can chow through some meat on this program! And the best thing is I never once got stiff in the morning or had to endure the pump. Just training all the way!!

You should see peoples faces when you hog the bench for half an hour at a time!

Hah, I already get quite the look of consternation from people wanting in on my 30 minute sessions on the squat rack.

Oh yeah, I get plenty of hate for my squat rack usage... it's silly how few of those racks gyms have when that's such an important exercise.

That's one thing I love about my gym. They have 5 racks and they're never in use. I think I've only ever seen one in use besides myself when I'm at the gym. Although the smith machine is always busy, go figure.

Nice!!!!!!!!!!!



Some people just never fail to amaze you do they?

I hate you already.

Yes, I am a petty person.

Really though, that's awesome... for some reason I HATE having to wait for the squat racks when it's never a big deal for me if I have to wait for anything else. We've got like 20 flat benches in our gym (mild exagerration, but there really are a ton) so there's never much of a wait there... and most days no one uses the squat racks, but if you go a bad day you could be 3 or 4 deep in a line.

I hear you. I have the exact same feeling because, WAY more often than not, the squat racks are being used by half-rep fakers that have no idea what they're doing, why they're at the gym, or what it really means to lift heavy weight.

This is true of much more kit than the squat rack, and I am definitely hearing you fellas!!

I think gyms should just throw people out if they can't use the kit!

kit?

Y'know the old gym kit, ha ha

Or what about equipment/ apparatus or something like that?

You jinxed me. For the first time yesterday I had to wait for the rack. I figured you made a few calls just to mess up my flow. Petty indeed. lol

I would rather that than the idiot doing barbell curls/Overhead Press/Dead Lift that is just too lazy to lift the bar from the floor... It's called a "squat" rack for a reason, dick. for the most part, it seems the guys at my gym that are actually doing squats are actually doing them right. With only 1 squat rack, the half-rep fakers are happy on the Smith Machine.

I do OH press from the rack because I don't want to clean 225 every time I begin my set. Then again, I let anyone work in that wants to.

Agreed. Also, at my gym, the only place we're allowed to drop the bar to the ground is at the squat rack. I'm doing stronglifts so I do squat, deadlifts, press and rows at the squat rack. All of these exercises either require dropping plates to the floor (controlled) or will involve plates hitting the floor if I have to let go .

Squats - obviously need a squat rack since I think I can squat more than I can clean and press/jerk.
Deadlifts - controlled drop
Press - like you say, don't want to clean that every time--wasted energy. Also, I might have to drop it one day if I lose my balance or something
Rows - controlled drop

Yeah, I do a lot of dynamic lifting in the squat rack, like snatches, squat cleans, etc. I work out in a private gym for the business and there's a lot of older ladies and gentlemen that like to walk around and not pay attention. I'm always worried I'll get pulled forward halfway up a squat clean and skewer an old lady with a 150 pound barbell if I'm not restricted by the squat rack. But I always offer it up for people that want to squat, fortunately or unfortunately, that rarely happens. I also do deadlifts in the squat rack because one time, I had 300 lbs on the bar and a lady wasn't looking and walked into the end of the bar as I was lowering it. Needless to say I explained how I really didn't desire the bar to have any torque on it at that point.

Ditto, sometimes dude come up and ask me if they can squat while I am deadlifting, I always say yes. More often than not, the guy just stands around and looks at me plaintively. I'm sorry, but if you want to work in, ask me. I am not going to volunteer to put myself out, grow some balls already.

I also end up hogging the one and only squat rack at my gym to crank out the Stronglifts 5x5, often tying it up for 15 minutes at a time twice a session.

Most people will walk in, glance at me, and walk out without a word -- even the bigger guys! It's obvious to me though, so I do compromise by walking away from the rack for 5 to 10 minutes in between exercises to let whomever is waiting get a crack at it (or make eye contact with them if they're pacing around the room).

While I hate doing it because it tires me out and makes me miss my rep target, I'll Clean a bar to do Presses or deload on the floor for Barbell Rows or Deadlifts.

My gym needs more squat racks and free weights. Period.

That workout is awesome. I had it backwards though -- I started with Madcow's 5x5 first, when I was better off with the Stronglifts 5x5 which is linear and better suited for fast-gaining novices.

Once I consistently squat between 1.5x and 2x my body weight, I'll think about going back to the periodized 5x5 for further gains.

Squatting 5x5 three times a week *rules*! I only got deadlifts once or twice a week, and only 1x5 but it was still satisfying.

It's funny though, I'm sure people think that my on my front squat days I'm just "half rep'ing" since I only go down to 90 degrees at the knees, but any more than that and my heels come off the floor and the pressure transfers from my legs to my back, so there's no need to go any lower.

There was a really good article in the May Mens Health about front squats, I should try to dig it up.

I'm pretty forgiving in the gym as long as people are actually doing SOMETHING though... what bugs me is when people take 10 minutes between sets of an empty bar and complain if you ask or try to work in. There's a difference between different styles of working out and just killing time, don't waste my time if you're just trying to avoid driving in traffic.

You Guys are all lucky, there is no squat rack at my gym!!!
I HAVE to clean the bar up when doing overhead stuff and front squats!

The top pins in the bench press are just about high enough to lift the bar off, if no one's on it!


You need to improve ur flexiblity, look at Olypmic guys squat! Thats what u should be aiming for. Get ur ass to the grass as it were! stretch out ur calves and hip flexors and practice with an empty bar to get lower and lower. Its worth the effort to get the full range of motion.

Yeah it is. I'm two weeks in and I'm absolutely loving the 3x/week squat. Going into it I didn't know whether my legs would have the ability to recover with only 1 day of rest in between squat days but so far they're carrying me along quite nicely.

I had another good day yesterday. My light squat day went well at 315 for 5x5, and I crushed the deadlifts at 400lb for 5x5. Next week I'm shooting for 380-385 for my heavy squat day and 405 for my heavy deadlift day.

I have progressed according to plan and I'm hoping to be somewhere around 15-20% higher with my 5 RM maxes in bench, bent over rows, squats, and deadlifts by the time the program is finished.

There are different schools of thought about squats but most of what I believe is you should only go as low as you can while keeping your heels planted in the ground. If your heels come up, you're going too low and if you don't go low enough for that to be even be a factor you need to go lower. Also, I avoid putting the strain on my lower back from doing back squats and if you go too low you're no longer working your legs; your lower back is taking the whole burden which is really not a good thing and you're also putting a great deal of stress on your knees.

It's not a question of flexibility at all, but more body mechanics/kineseology. Since this conversation always ultimately descends into a "well that's how everyone does it and has always done it" debate, I'll just head that off at the pass: if everyone always just did things the way they've always been done then nothing would ever get better. The human body is extremely adaptive and you can do things ineffectively, or downright wrong, and your body will respond.

How many guys do you see at the gym pushing their feet into the ground and arcing their lower back for leverage on the benchpress or leaning forward and "swinging" the weights up on curls... yet they're still pretty big. That's how the majority of people have been lifting for a long time, with no mind on form or isolating muscles and while it's probably been a much longer path for them, they still got there. My argument is that by stepping back and analyzing what works best for you and understanding how the body works in general, you can get there faster. Staying on subject here, I never got over 2 plates (225lbs) for back squats... I've technically been stuck at that weight for 5 years (without actively training for most of them though). I could never push that much weight without it really hurting my lower back, and not in the good "lifting heavy, tearing up the muscles to rebuild" pain. My legs were never getting a real workout because I was limited by a bad back (which I had hurt several years ago.) When I switched to front squats I had to drop to 1 plate (135lbs) just to learn the form and get my strength back; 2 months later I'm up at 325lbs. I put heavy weight on my back just do test the other day (started at 225) and I pushed out a set of 4 at 315, 90lbs higher than I what I was stuck on for 5 years with for back squats... that's a hell of an improvement considering I haven't even been doing back squats for 2 months). In the end though it was too hard on my back so I'm going to stick with fronts. My conclusion from my own experimentation: front squats are better FOR ME when it comes to building strength and size. Until I started doing them two months ago I'd never even seen anyone doing front squats heavy and everyone does back squats... that doesn't mean jack to me because I know what works better for me.

Good advice I think

My housemate was only boasting the other day about how low he goes in the squat and actually demonstrated a squat where he went down and on to his toes????? When I suggested keeping his heels on the floor and doing it properly he demonstrated how tight his hip flexors were and he really couldn't go down that far.

Probably why he considers squatting 40kg as a workout

This is perhaps one of the most important things to remember when doing squats. If someone is squatting their heels should NEVER come off the ground no matter what. If they do, then that person is either doing something wrong and/or their back is too weak to support the load they're working with.

It should be remembered though that it's entirely possible to go down into the bucket while digging your heels into the ground. Barring an injury or some other unfortunate event, there's no reason why this should not happen. If someone cannot go all the way down because their heels elevate before a full-rep can be done, then their form is basically incorrect or their doing too much weight prematurely.

I'm not trying to single anyone out in my post. I'm just throwing this out there.

Also, Clifford, do you use a belt when you squat?

Some peoples body mechanics are just different, but there's also a lot to do in foot placement... if your feet are too close or too wide, or if you're pointing your toes too far in or out it's going to change the range of motion. As far as foot placement goes, the tip I got early on was to jump straight up as high as you can and land naturally. Do this a few times and observe the placement of your feet as you land: this should give you a good idea of where to put your feet for squats and other similar exercises. I think the most important thing to remember is that you're not trying to emulate anyone else in the gym, but you don't want to cut yourself short, so you've got to go down as far as YOU possibly can, whether that means you're picking a penny up off the mat with your buttcheeks or you go down to 90, but everyone should be able to hit at least 90.

Jericho, no I don't use a belt, but that's a damned fine suggestion; I'll have to work that in this week.