All -

A buddy of mine was doing weighted front squats on that hammer strength machine where the pads rest on your shoulders and you explode up at a sort of a 45 degree angle, anyway, he tore his meniscus. He may have been doing something wrong or it could have just been bad luck--- Either way, I love doing squats but have grown a little wary of stacking plates on my squats since my knees have always given me trouble.

could you suggest the type of squats i can do using my own body weight or swiss ball ?

any other suggestions would be helpful too..

Thanks,

"hammer strength machine"

Well, there's his problem. When you use machines for squats you're confined to a fixed plane of motion and your knees take the brunt of any lateral or rotational forces that develop (due to bad form, too much weight, etc.) because they're the weak link. Even if that's not likely to occur, freeweight squats with good form are loads better for your body all around than any machine you can find.

Believe it or not, if you have knee pain, you should probably be doing MORE squatting not less. Squats build strength in and around the knee.

Stronglifts Article about Squats and Knee Pain

Edit: Oh yeah, I meant to ask if you're sure you're going below parallel on squats. Stopping before getting below parallel is hard on the knees. Ideally, you should go ass-to-ankles and back up.

always good to be schooled -- Thanks splint

what's the consensus on swiss ball squats or using your own body weight ? yay or nay ?

If you're interested in doing body weight squats, why not just do, well, squats? I like to warm up my legs by crossing my arms in front of me and putting resting my hands on the oppiset shoulder, and doing ass-to-grass squats, nice and slow, with a pause at the bottom and at the top. One legged squats are a nice body weight only alternative to weighted squats.

I'd say, don't bother with the swiss ball unless you have a pre-existing injury that requires such adaptations. But by all means take advantage of body weight only training.

Okay, here's a question while we're on the topic of squats. Slightly off topic, but please humor me.

On a squat, you are not supposed to bring your knees in front of your ankles, right? But you are also supposed to go "ass to grass." I literally cannot do that motion. I either have to come up onto my toes or I will fall on my butt. What's up with that? How does every body else make this work?

That's likely a flexability issue Rachel. I believe some people will start off doing squats with a 2.5lb or 5lb plate under their heels, to help with this issue. I would suggest taking a look at whether you're stretching enough after your workouts, and consider trying to improve the flexability in your legs. It's worth a shot, and as long as you're careful to not pull anything or over do it, working on your flexability can only benefit you regardless of whether it helps your squats, specificly.

Classic case of a lack of hip mobility. There are ways to work on this problem, you can practice by touching your toes to a wall in squat position, then touching your head and shoulders to the wall. Slowly lower yourself to parallel (or below) then return. My guess is you will fall over about half way down.

You need to learn to stick your hips and ass out first before lowering your trunk. Remember to puff up your chest with air, arch your back, and point your knees out.

Damn this stuff doesn't translate well to text. Sometimes I wish I could just draw a diagram.

For what? As an alternative for weighted squats? I mean, there is no alternative for heavy squats. (Did that period show up bold?) But bodyweight squats have their place. I use them in part of my warm-up (3 set of 5 pull-ups, 5 dips, and 10 bodyweight squats) to get the blood moving.

Sometimes I also do tabata rounds of bodyweight squats where you squat as many times as you can in 20 seconds then rest for 10 seconds, repeat for 8 rounds. Your score is the lowest reps in a single round.

You can also do pistols or one-legged squats as mentioned above but personally, I find them harder on my knees than heavy back squats.

Practicing Overhead Squatshas also helped my squat form and flexibility.

Bottom line, don't give up on weighted back squats because of sore knees. Work on good for and don't be afraid to start out with a broomstick and work your way up. You can stick to bodyweight squats but you're not going to be scaring Bourblaster out of the squatrack sticking to bodyweight squats.

Best way to practice this is to do the sumo squat in front of a wall. In fact, if you can't do the sumo squat directly facing a wall then you should question whether you are prepared to face resistance anyway.

Simply face a wall with your feet shoulder width apart and toes facing slightly outwards. Put your arms straight down in front of you with the backs of your hands facing the wall. Begin with your toes an inch or two from the wall and gradually move closer as you improve. (Ideally you can do this exercise with your toes touching the wall). Now simply squat down until your fingers touch the floor or as far as you can go. Ensure your heels are always on the floor.

For those used to good form this will be relatively easy but don't be surprised if you find it difficult. If it is a challenge then practice them every day until you have it nailed.

Only when this is mastered should you consider being too ambitious with adding poundages.

I'm guessing you missed my post? good to see we're on the same wavelength though.

Splint, right on the money yet again. I do bodyweight squatting/lunges/etc. to warm up my flexors for heavy leg days. It definitely serves its purpose in limbering me up.

I did pistols for a while and also found it put incredible strain on my knee, far more than heavy back squats. So what's the point given heavy back squats are undeniably better?

What on earth! That is really difficult. It's not so much a flexibility issue for me, I think, as much as a problem balancing.

With all due respect to bourblaster, I had a much easier time understanding Dean's way of how to accomplish good form. As you said bourblaster and i certainly agree, i wish there was a way for you to draw a diagram.

But if what Dean mentioned is what's best-practice, then i understand what i should be doing.

Thanks for the info guys. It's weird, I've never thought of my hips as not being flexible. I guess I need to work on that. Thanks again!

Sorry buddy!

You were one step ahead the whole time

Lots of crap going on with the hips, two independent ball joints sometimes working together, other times separately. It's our power center. Think of all the crazy forces generated in there! Then think of all the structure necessary to keep your hips from disjointing and your spine from dislodging from your pelvis.

When you looks at it that way it's not so surprising to think there are probably some flexibility issues if you haven't worked on it before.

But don't feel bad, I suffer from flexibility issues as well, in fact, just today I was working on full squat snatches. Rotten exercise. I can't catch it in a full squat cause my stupid shoulders aren't flexible enough. But I can catch it in a half squat, steady everything, then lower and raise to complete the squat. Takes me 30 warm-up reps just to get that far though.

Rotten exercise.

Internal, external rotation? Or face pulls? Other than hip mobility, I'd say scapular mobility is the other neglected joint.

Okay so I finally got around to figuring out what this means and trying it. I SO cannot do it. To do it, I literally had to have my feet like a foot away from the wall. I inched them forward a little. A couple of times I actually wound up on my back. Is there any way to stretch the hips or something? Or is this the only way to improve? Just keep doing the sumo squats?

Hip Mobility. Enjoy

http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1778726

http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1865219

http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1618485

http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1098876

Holy crap, Shawn!! A little warning please!! I'm at work and some naked chic just popped up on my screen. Hahah!

Are they actual stretches you can do or is it just a naked girl? I didn't really stop and study.

Okay, I'm finally working through these links.

Question:

Is this an example of good or bad form?



It looks good except that his knees are way in front of his ankles, right?

He is doing some things right. His depth is good, he is sticking his ass out and pointing his knees. I can't tell if his back is flat.

You are right, he is coming down too far ahead and isnt sitting back onto his haunches, which is bringing him way to far forward. It looks like he is almost about to lift his heels, which is terrible.

How about this chick? Proper form?

Is that a trick question? Form for the snatch is considerably altered by the different bar placement.

Okay, I think I get the correct form. I just can't do it yet. One of the articles said that if you can't do it but you can with heels on, then it is an issue of ankle mobility or flexibility. So I did a squat with my heels on and could do it! Guess I'll be working on that too.

Should I wait until I can do a proper form body weight squat before I start adding weight? I mean, it seems like it might take a while before I get everything flexible enough to do it correctly.

Eh...maybe? I think you can add some weight while learning form, I wouldn't consider the bar to be anything hazardous. Without the bar on your back, having good squat form is considerably easier.

Learn with the bar on your back.

Sounds like a plan. Thanks, Bour. Oh, and thanks Shawn for the links.

Glad to help

When in doubt squat with a broomstick to work on form

Practice doing your air squats with a focus on keeping your weight on your heels. Here's a little trick to enforce not rolling onto your toes.

Lift your big toe off the floor, like you do when you're trying to decide if these shoes are big enough. With your big toe out of play, you have to push through your heels.

Also, if you're going ass to grass, for the purposes of squat, you're going too low. Your hip crease goes below your knees, not below your shins or ankles. Try to keep your chest nice and big, like a few people said before, but put a basketball or similarly sized object behind you to act as a depth gauge.

Dig:

http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/CrossFit_AirSqu ats.mov

Lots of good pointers in that video.

Good luck.

There is definitely a huge debate about this that rages in the lifting community. I see you have phrased that statement very carefully, "for the purposes of the squat." I guess that is a very subjective thing indeed, some people squat to get big legs, some people squat to compete, some people squat because they have to, some people squat because it hurts so good.

ATG squats are useful for some people, deleterious for others. One thing I think we can agree on is that ATG squats are harder and therefore will yield more muscle mass. However, if you can tack on an extra 50lbs by stopping a couple inches higher and still break below parallel, I tend to think the commandment of maximum strain is more important.

I saw this happen with my lifting partner, who historically has squatted to where he was probably an inch above his ankles. Perfect form, but his knees started to give out when he squatted 3 times per week. At the time, we were on Mad Cow 5x5, and doing all our squats to a box set up to that height. I finally convinced him to raise the box so that his squat depth was still below parallel, but not nearly as low. His knee pain is gone, he is box squatting 390 for 3 reps, and doesn't feel like someone took a tire iron to his body all the time.

So I tend to agree with you Apollo, I think ATG squats aren't necessary. However, if you are the kind of guy (or girl) who can walk in and ATG 3 times a week with no problems, bully for you and keep at it.

The other issue we have to remember is that different people have curves of the spine which affects how low they can go. Go an inch or two lower and some will start to curve their spine and risk injury.

If you can maintain good/safe form and do an ATG then by all means do it.

As sour mentioned the right weight plays a big roll. I can do ATG on lighter weight then I can if I just go to parallel. Each depends on if i'm shooting for heavier weights or greater depth