What is your difference between machine bench press and free/barbell bench press (regular set of reps)? Right now for me:

Machine: 10x3 160lbs
Barbell: 10x3 115lbs

I have no idea. I haven't used a machine for bench press in ages. Once you go to the freeweights, you can never turn back.

If you use the bench press machine regularly, I suggest you stop. It's just not nearly as effective as DB or BB bench press.

I'm curious, but I don't think I'm curious enough to waste a workout on the machine Maybe I'll try for a 1RM on the machine...

Machine: 685lb
Barbell: 315lb

A double dose of what he's having please!! And same again tomorrow

I KNOW ISNT THE SMITH MACHINE JUST THE BEES KNEES!?!

seriously, I want to melt it down into kettlebells, the thing is pointedly useless.

So that's the trick!! I know what to have for dessert after I've secured my order now.

Yeah, I didn't have a spotter for about a month, so I was forced (by the rules of the weight training class) to use the machine. Such a cheap illusion of strength, eh? I'm on barbell exclusively now, though every now and then I try the machine just for an ego boost ;)

I remember my fascist gym in college demanded that I have a spotter for any exercise where the barbell came near the head. Sorry for you bud, good to see you don't have deal with it anymore.

I'm using the smith machine for all my bench press and squat work, and so far 10 weeks in, I can't really complain at all, I've made some good gains and I don't understand why there is this macho holier than thou attitude towards it. I guess its not as 'cool' as free-weights.

You simply aren't working the stabilizers like you would with a real world situation (Oh noes! A file cabinet fell across your chest. Lift it off of you quick!). Instead of "lifting" the weight you are just pushing the weight.

oh dear.

First of all, if the goal is overall strength, two guys who post the same exact numbers (one smith and one free weight) will not truly be the same strength. I hazard to say that if you smith bench 225, any guy with 75% of that press with free weighst will be able to bench the same as you on the smith. Doesn't that make you want to give it up? This is merely a question of efficiency. Why wouldn't you train with the exercise that gets you stronger with greater economy of movement?

The smith is it is bad because:

1) It forces you into only one way of moving a weight on a single fixed plane, no exercise consists of motion with only one degree of freedom.

2) The more muscles you recruit to move a weight, the stronger you become. This is simply a matter of maximum strain, you strain your body far more with free weights ergo you will get stronger faster.

3) Can a guy who runs a 7 minute treadmill mile run a 7 minute track mile? No goddamn way. You'd be lucky to see even 75% of your watts translate. The fact is, machines and support hinder your progress. The goal is progress here, right?

4) It is cooler.

5) You can't complain yet because you aren't real strong yet. Trust me, your opinion will change at some point. But please, for the love of god, get off that thing. Your gains will happen so much faster, why would you handicap yourself so willingly?

and soon, otherwise you may very well hurt yourself trying to do a real squat.

I don't think we can say it any more concisely than we already have, but those machines do a disservice to anyone in the gym. By creating an unnatural fixed plane of motion, they're putting people at risk of hurting themselves. Additional risk in that by poorly training they body, they're putting people at serious risk of hurting themselves if they transition to barbell exercises.

If you think that the smith machine somehow helps, even if you don't have a spotter, that's not the case. I can bench without a spotter within 2-3% (at least) of the same weight I would lift with a spotter; I'm just not looking to test any 1RM's. And maybe bour is doing squats that require a spotter, but the squat rack has the supports for a reason and that's all I've ever needed.

and, it is cooler.

Wholy crap how can you lift so much! thats 311 kilograms! I mean i'm lifting 15 kg with my legs at the moment, so maybe around 30 with my arms.

CRAP..........

I guess it simply comes down to goals. My goal isn't to be an uber-lifter, it's simply to lose weight and have a good physique so I'm really not concerned with the numbers of my lifting or what billy-bob is lifting on the free-weights. Comparing to others isn't in my agenda, I prefer to compare against myself.

I have an issue with this injury aspect and the 'for the love of god get off the infernal machine, you will be crippled' attitude that i've receive from people on the internet - not specifically you guys, but from a few other places.

My personal trainer is very experienced, degree qualified and has had been doing it for 10+ years and he has told me that he has yet to see anyone under his tutelage or in his gym be seriously injured when using the smith machine, yet he has seen plenty of injuries on the free-weights.

The only difference between the two that he has told me is in form. Of course you can't use the same form of squat as you would with a free-weight, and vice versa, but where is the definition that says that doing a squat on a smith-machine with a correct form for that particular motion isn't a proper squat? for me personally, I get a better workout with the smith than I do with free-weights, I find it very difficult to adequatly work my glutes on the free-weights, so I prefer the smith machine. Yes my form is different, it has to be, but I've yet to speak to anyone in my gym who has had any problems squatting or pressing with the smith - as long as the form is right.

i think there is an elitist attitude to using free-weights. I get the impression that one wouldn't be 'hardcore' or man enough if using the smith, and i've yet to read any compelling evidence/research to suggest the smith machine is a crippler (assuming the user is practicing correct form).

However, it doesn't mean to say that I disagree that free-weights make you stronger, I can totally understand that and the analogy of the runner is perfectly sound - I've experienced the same thing myself. I just don't understand the belitting of people who choose to use the smith machine, it's all down to individual goals.

And lastly - does it really matter if it's cooler? Do any of you seriously go to the gym to try and look cool? There's a dude in my gym who is always decked in golds' gym gear, all the belts and gloves etc and looks a complete prat as he farts around skipping from one excercise to the next. I'll tell you what is cool; the old dude who comes in with a tattered t-shirt and beat up trainers, and starts doing press ups on his knuckles and then runs like a demon, the old dude is one of the fittest guys in my gym, I'm sure he is not fussed about looking cool!

Caveat: I'm not having a go at any individuals here, I appreciate all the advice, but i'm just drilling down to find out where these opinions and information come from as they conflict with the information given to me by the pro's at my gym.

That's not cool at all!

I think that the biggest issue is that the Smith Machine presents an inferior and significantly less efficient way to do things. You feel this more in your glutes because it works more to isolate that muscle; something a squat should not do. By using free weights, you are working the stabilizer muscles around your knees, your groin, quads, hamstrings, your hips more, your core. With the Smith, you're getting half the workout at best (the reason this leads to resulting injuries is when you go and try to do a real squat and all the muscles you've still never used are incorporated).

The problem with machines, and the smith counts too, is due to the origins and insertions of tendons. when your joints are required to perform a very specific flexion in a very specific range, the body cannot correctly compensate for changes in alignment of tendon insertions. this causes stress to dissipate unevenly through the tendon structure and can lead to injury.

There is NO advantage to using the SM. By using the free weights, you not only work the same muscles, you work many more, and you make your body stronger, not just one particular muscle (which is why the squat is such a big deal!). It's the reason machines are not recommended - because the move is not natural and might make one muscle stronger, but doesn't make you stronger. Do you want to see the best results from your workouts? I guess that's what it comes down to.

Terribly inadequate article about the SM.

More important article about Free vs. Machines

A note from Stuart, who operates exrx.net

Mehdi's note on the subject (stronglifts)

Good article on T-nation

That's it, I'm done. These are all respected sites, with sound information. Do what you want, but know that we're not coming from an elitist perspective; I can't even bench 185, I'm not an elite bodybuilder! This is about safety first, and results second. I'm pretty sure that's all that matters when lifting weights.

Dave - please note that I did clarify that I wasn't accusing you or an individual specifically of being elitist.

Anyways, I will take a look at the articles, and refer to my trainer and make a judgement call on the information. I appreciate you posting the links.

noted, just wanted to make sure you knew I wasn't thinking that way either

That's a nice, concise way of putting it.

Finally, something your trainer says that makes sense! There is a huge difference between proper squat form on the smith machine and on the BB. Most of that difference lies in the fact that you CANNOT PERFORM A SQUAT CORRECTLY UNLESS YOU DO IT ON FREE-WEIGHTS. End of story. There should be no confusion over this. BB squats require a plethora of micro-movements and adjustments that you simply cannot replicate on the Smith Machine. As has been exhaustedly stated so far, the Smith Machine locks you in a fixed plane of motion that does not allow you to adequately make these adjustments.



This is because you have not learned how to correctly perform a BB squat. I guarantee that once you transition away from the Smith Machine and take some time to learn how to properly squat, you will no longer say that the Smith Machine affords you a better workout. There is no room for personal preference here -- BB squats, objectively speaking, are better, harder, and much more efficient at giving you a great workout vis-a-vis than those on the Smith Machine.



Open your eyes, the evidence is everywhere (thanks Dave).



If by "goals" you mean "progress" then there's no reason why you should knowingly perform an exercise that is objectively inferior to another. That just doesn't make sense. If you truly have goals, I would think that you'd like to maximize them by incorporating those exercises that give you the greatest results.



In the grand scheme of things, not really. But what does matter is how much of damned Beast you'll become by doing them (and doing them correctly).

If your goal is to lose weight, and you're doing so by buliding muscle (bravo on that btw!) wouldn't you want to do your exercises in a way that maximizes the benefit? The fact that the machine is supporting you and isolating your movement into one plane of movement simply means that you are not using all the stabilizers and support muscles that you would use with free weights. In the end, it's never really about how much weight you're pushing, but getting the most out of every bit of your workout. The smith machine prevents you from doing that.

I personally have never gotten the workout from a smith machine, whether from squats or bench/military press, that I am able to get from free weights, especially dumbells since they give you a much larger range of motion in which you are forced to control the weights.

Besides the fact that it's an inferior method to doing the exercises, the fact that you AREN'T building up the supporting muscles and stabilizers can actually be more dangerous. Yes, people are more likely to injure themselves DURING an exercise with free weights (if they're idiots that lift too heavy with bad form, proper form = no injuries), but on a machine you're ignoring FUNCTIONAL muscles that support those bigger muscles that you're isolating, so if you spend too long on any machine, you're going to have a major strength imbalance that won't come into play until you're actually trying to do something in the real world and can lead to other potential injuries (runners knee is a great example of a muscle imbalance leading to pain: your hamstrings get stronger than your quads and all of a sudden your quads aren't as good at keeping your knee in socket = PAIN). Learn the form, grab a bar.

If you learn the proper form of ANY exercise, there is no machine that will give you more of a workout than doing it with free weights. That is not up for debate. Free weights are always a superior way of doing any resistance training exercises; the fact that you build strength and size faster from using them is just evidence of that; whether your goal is to be stronger or bigger or not, the simple fact that progress is that you will progress FASTER and, with proper form, it is SAFER to get away from those machines.

My honest opinion about MOST people (not all, and not necessarily you!) who stick to machines religiously (cycling them in and out of a regimen isn't necessarily a bad thing to mix it up), are that they're taking the easy way out because, in the end, it is EASIER, and by doing things easier, you're stifling your progress. People do things the easy way because it makes them feel better, emotionally, because they feel like they did something whether or not they actually did. Personally, I feel better when I know that what I did moved me up my path as far as it possibly could have.

There are two things that happen when you're in the gym: 1) muscle overload, which builds muscle; and 2) energy burn, basically you're "fuel" and there is a delicate balance there. If you waste time on inferior exercises, you run out of fuel and cannot overload your muscles properly, which means your progress will be MUCH slower.



Not that I'm completely doubting your trainer, but "degree qualified" and "doing it for 10+ years" means jack to me. There are brilliant, great people with ceritifactions and experience, but there are plenty more idiots (especially in the software development world!) It's almost to the point where I'm ready to no-hire a candidate if they come into an interview and the first words out of their mouths are either how long they've done the job, or boasting about a cert they have. Not to say that your trainer is full of it or not, but I'm a skeptic until an individual proves me wrong about themselves: you can do things wrong for a long time and still pass a test and get a paycheck.

I've lost 61lbs in just over 3 months. In that time I've lost 12% body fat and my strength and endurance is up significantly. I've done this without a trainer, yet many of the trainers in my gym and other gyms I've been to always try to pitch their services to me with a mantra of "lose weight slower!" That's not to say they're all full of crap (I know plenty who aren't), or that my results are gauranteed by my program (click here to sign up now for the low, LOW price of YOUR FIRSTBORN CHILD!) My "program" doesn't really exist, it's a matter of feeling things out to find what works for me on a week-by-week basis, but no trainer that has hit me with a sales pitch has ever suggested that I do most of the things I do, in fact, most of them push the Smith Machine religiously.

The simple fact is, though, that the human body is amazingly adaptive. You can do things "wrong" for a long time and your body will still adjust and get stronger and you'll still build muscle, but wouldn't you rather do that in as little time as possible? The Smith Machine isn't the shortest road to your destination and free weights (with proper form) are; that's just how it is. Sorry if that's not what you want to hear, but that's pretty much the truth. I guess the question to ask yourself (besides how you feel about frontal male nudity) is this: would you rather work harder and see results like, or better, than mine, or would you rather do what's easier and take the slow road?

Like I said earlier, you're not likely to hurt yourself USING a Smith Machine, but you won't build functional strength and, as a result, you may be setting yourself up for a fall so I would argue that you're increasing the odds of injuring yourself AWAY from the Smith Machine BECAUSE of it (refer back to my runners knee example, you'd be amazed at how many knee "problems" are solved by building leg strength!)

Yes, there is an elitist attitude that a lot of guys have in the gym about using free weights, but it's not completely unsound and I don't think anyone here is speaking from the elitist throne or trying to belittle you, we're fans of free weights because, in the end, they're just better for you.

Oh, and back on subject, my workout weight comparison:
Straight bar benchpress: 225lb (6x3)
Machine benchpress: 420lb (6x3)

Guess which one physically feels like a better workout The machine is just nice to feel beastly in my head since our machines cap out at 500lbs and I'm practically there already, it's nice to see the look on peoples faces when I'm lifting nearly the whole stack... heh

We're pretty passionate about our squat, eh?

Bravo people.

Not so much passionate about squats as I'm passionate about not wasting time